Matthew Novis
ANNOTATIONS
Learn More: “2020 Point in Time (PIT) Survey Coming Home Data Analysis” (Coming Home of Middlesex County, 2020).
Learn More [2]: Hank Kalet, “Explainer: A Primer on Homelessness in the State of New Jersey,” NJ Spotlight News, July 8, 2014.
Learn More [3]: Raven Santana, “Across NJ, Volunteers Take Part in Effort to Count, and Aid, the Homeless | Video,” NJ Spotlight News, January 29, 2020.
Learn More [2]: Lilo H. Stainton, “NJ First State to Let Paramedics Offer Prime Opioid-Withdrawal Drug,” NJ Spotlight News, July 2, 2019.
Learn More [3]: National Institute on Drug Abuse, “Commonly Used Drugs Charts,” National Institute on Drug Abuse, August 20, 2020.
Learn More [4]: “Homelessness and Addiction,” Addiction Center.
Learn More: “Depression and Suicide,” Homeless Hub.
TRANSCRIPT
Interview conducted by Ala’ Jitan
Conducted remotely
August 12th, 2020
Transcription by Rutgers Oral History Archive
0:00
Hello, it is nice to meet you, good afternoon.
You, too.
My name is Ala'. If you forget or need me to remind you, just ask. I am a student, or I guess I just recently graduated from Rutgers. I am a history student, so I study environmental history. I study culture, race, ethnicity, a bunch of different stuff. I got tagged onto this program just a few weeks ago. I just wanted to let you know a little bit about myself before oral histories and that sort of thing, so that is where I am at. I want to be a part of this. I am sure Austin went over everything with you.
Yes, we went over the papers. Basically, the only thing, I don’t have an issue with it, but if I use somebody’s name that another name be used unless I say something like my mom.
I understand. That is fine. That is pretty normal. To be clear, that I am pretty sure is covered. Just to let you know where I am coming from, I am just the interviewer, so I am taking the record. We are working together. I am just going to make sure that your story gets out, so all of the details, whatever you want to add on. If it is in the middle of the interview or if it is at the end or the interview, you can say, “Hey, we were talking about that stuff back there, but I do not want it in there.” That is totally fine. As a historian or student researcher, I just wanted to say– I always tell people this– your story matters. Whatever you want to share is whatever you want to share. Whatever you do not want to share is whatever you do not want to share. We are here to just help you get your story out. It is valuable not just to us, but hopefully to you and to people down the line. Another part of that consent form and that release is knowing that at some point in the near future, some researchers, artists, and a collaborative organization are going to put it together and hopefully get something out that the public can see or hear. Depending on what the situation looks like, it could be your story by itself; it could be part of a bigger story. That is kind of what we are engaged in. I just want to make sure that you know. Your time is valuable, and we really appreciate it.
Yes, and I appreciate the opportunity.
Besides, I am going to make a quick note. We can use pseudonyms for anybody you mention. Was there anything else you wanted to know?
I think the other thing was about my name. I don’t care if my name is used. Usually, I would care, but with what’s going on in the world, I don’t care if my name is all over everything to be honest with you.
If that changes, just communicate that so we can make sure it is taken care of.
Sure.
Do you prefer it as Matt or Matthew?
Most people call me Matt, it doesn’t matter to me. I prefer Matt, but if you want to call me Matthew I have no problem with that.
We are just getting through the office stuff right here, but we will start the actual interview in a second. Let me make sure I got all my bases covered. One quick question I got to ask– do you need to see this transcript? I guess I should back up. At the end of this interview at some point, somebody is going to get this recording and they are going to make a transcript. They are going to type it up. That is basically a gift to you. You get a copy, and you get to keep it forever. Would you like to see that before it becomes published?
Sure.
While I am doing this, I will just remind you. You have my undivided attention in just a second, but if I do waver off it is because I have a notepad here. I have some other notes on my laptop that I will be checking while we are doing the interview. Again, just a reminder, I am going to start off with simple questions to get to know you a bit better, and then we have questions that we are interested in asking. Then, if you have anything you want to suggest talking about, you can, too. If I do ask you anything you do not want to talk about, just feel free to say, “I am not answering.” There is no pressure to answer something you do not feel like talking about. Vice versa, if you want to change the conversation to something else, by all means go ahead.
Alright, thank you.
This starts our interview. It is August 12th. It is Wednesday. The year is 2020. My name is Ala'. My last name is Jitan. I am here on behalf of the Shelter project, and I am interviewing you. If you would like to, introduce your name for the record.
My name is Matthew Novis.
How old are you?
Fifty-one.
How would you say you identify your sex or gender, if you feel comfortable sharing that?
Heterosexual.
Do you have a gender identity that you would like to share?
Male.
Do you have a race or ethnic group you identify with?
Caucasian.
When were you born?
June 8th, 1969.
Where was that?
Saint Peter’s in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
Do you have a religious background?
Roman Catholic.
We are here in Highland Park. Is that correct?
Correct.
8:04
Where were you last prior to being here in Highland Park, prior to being relocated?
I was staying in Monroe with my mother until recently. I moved into a welfare hotel. I’m waiting out a housing voucher.
The housing voucher, do you want to talk more about how that worked out for you?
From what I understand, you’re placed on a list. Depending on, I guess, the severity of your physical or mental health or both, depends on where they place you on that list. You have to wait for a voucher to become available. Then, I’ll be allowed to look for an apartment. I think they have different complexes they use in Middlesex County. That will be the next step after that, and then finally getting my own place again.
With that voucher, how long were you waiting– you mentioned staying at your mom’s house– between applying for the voucher and actually receiving anything?
I was at my mom’s. Are you still there? Hello? Can you hear me?
[TAPE PAUSED]
Are you there?
Yes, I am here. Can you hear me alright?
Yes. You were frozen there for a while, and then it got kicked off.
11:15
I am sorry about that. The same thing happened on my end. I think we both just got locked up. I am sorry about that, but we can pick up where we left off. The last thing you were talking about, I had asked you about how long you were waiting on the voucher and the time period between when you applied and when you were preparing.
Right, how it works is once you apply for the– I was considered homeless even though I was staying with my mom. I was only there because of what’s going on with the virus and because I have some health problems. She was very concerned about me being outdoors and around people. Back in April, April 4th, I went there. But where she lives, they have requirements. You have to be a certain age. You have to pass a background check. You got to fill out paperwork, and I wouldn’t meet any of the requirements. She was told by one of the neighbors that there’s different sections that are looked over by different people there. They have a board, and the lady was questioning one of neighbors about me asking who I was, how long I was there. When I told my mom this, you know, I don’t want to get my mom in trouble. My mom said, “I hate to do it, but you’re going to have to go.” A couple of weeks ago, I got back in touch with Jason. I’ve been trying off and on for housing for a while. I called him up, and I had to get a letter from my mom. Now, I went to the hotel and I’ve been there about two weeks now. It could take anywhere from I guess two weeks. It could take a year. It could be a year that I’m in the hotel. It could be a month, could be six. They don’t really know. I believe because of what’s going on with, you know, the virus and the economy, things like that aren’t moving like they were once moving.
I understand. It seems like your main concerns were your health, your mother’s health. When you talk about not wanting to get your mom in trouble, what is that situation?
I guess she could be evicted because rents a house there. She rents there, so there is certain rules like she can’t have visitors no longer than ten days and no more than, I think, four times a year. She is allowed to have someone stay. I guess if I didn’t take up the whole ten days, if I stayed three days and left, I could do that numerous times a year. I’m not fifty-five or over, and I’ve been in some trouble in the past. You have to have a clean record in order to be there, and I understand that totally. Like I told my mom, I wouldn’t want an ex-burglar living next to you. That wouldn’t make me feel comfortable at all, so I understand why they have certain things. I get that. Unfortunately for some of us that have straightened out our lives, that follows you around your whole life. I can’t even get a job at Walmart. They won’t even hire you because no felonies. I’ve been told straight out. I went to a guitar store in Edison, Ash Guitars. [REDACTED] doesn’t hire felons. You go knock on somebody else’s door.
15:29
I have heard that, so you are working with what you got. Basically, you are working with the rules. In this case, it would be your mother’s rental agreement or employer’s restrictions, and then the timeframes as you are explaining them and how long you are legally allowed to stay. One thing I am curious about, when you are applying for this voucher and working on getting your housing situation figured out–
Yes, I am going to run into problems getting a place. Certain apartment complexes, I guess depending on the type of crime, I have no violent crimes so that helps, but they can say, “We don’t care that happened twenty-five years ago. You still did something, and we don’t want that type around here.”
Is there anything about that– feel free to say no– about the things that follow you around that you want to share? Specifically, things that come up more frequently in terms of what people are interested in knowing.
Sure, well, I’m from the New Brunswick area. Up until several years ago, almost three years ago, I was abusing drugs. I’d walk the streets of New Brunswick, and I know people saw me. Some would shake their head. Some would go on the other side of the street. Some would not look at me or say hello. It still happens. I still get that. I can’t help how people look at me. I have somebody that I was associated with, and he would call me certain derogatory names, call me a junkie, things like that. He doesn’t like them. Well, why are you around me then? Why are you even talking to me if you don’t like my type? You got to look at the whole picture. I look at him. He does cocaine. He smokes pot. He drinks, and you’re going to call me a junkie. Look in the mirror, man. That person I stopped talking to. It’s been months, and I even avoid him. If I see him, I’ll go the other way because he disrespected me verbally over the phone. It was another homeless person, and I didn’t like what he said to me. I didn’t like what he said to my other friend, so I just cut ties with him. He called me a something-lover. I like people. It has nothing to do with race or creed or religion. It has nothing to do with that. He called me a blank-lover. The guy was Black. Unfortunately, that person, you know, I tried helping him into a rehab, and he was trying to get in again. About two weeks after that incident, he passed away down here in the park, in Boyd Park. I’m bitter at this person. They’re very racist, and I have very little tolerance for it, for any type of hate. To be honest with you, there are certain people I don’t like that commit certain crimes on certain people. That type of stuff, yes, I guess you could say, I don’t know if I’m prejudiced against them, but it bothers me greatly when I hear about things like that, like with kids or with women. Any type of abuse, it just bothers me.
Can I ask you then, besides this friend that you are mentioning, what is your relationship to your friends, your family besides your mother that you mentioned, your community? Who is it that you count as your family and your community, either now or in the past?
Now, it consists of my mom and my sisters. I have three sisters. I have a brother, but we don’t really talk anymore. Real friends right now, I couldn’t give you one really. I deal with [REDACTED] and another guy, [REDACTED]. They’re very good. They’ve treated me very well, and they help me out. I would actually consider them more of a friend than the people I associate with on the outside because it’s superficial. Everybody has problems, either drinking or drugs or whatever it may be, and it’s, “What can I get from them?” I know that all too well. There’s not too many people I really confide in, and I think that’s a big part of my problem right now with depression, that I don’t talk about my issues or things I’m dealing with or going through. Those things, you keep them in long enough, eventually it’s going to come out some way, either depression or anger, whatever it may be. I just started telling some people about my experiences being a caretaker. I did it for my dad. I was doing it here for my mom for a few months, and it’s very tough mentally at times.
22:27
I can imagine. What more do you want to say about that as long as we are on that subject?
Well, my mom, she’s been in a wheelchair now for about fourteen years. She has arthritis and fibromyalgia. She’s morbidly obese. She has diabetes, high blood pressure. She’s got all kinds of problems with her eyes from the diabetes where she has to take all of these drops. Then, I have my health problems. When this virus is going on, she thought I was getting carried away. Maybe I was a little in the beginning. We would get groceries delivered, and I wiped everything down before I brought it in the house. We wouldn’t let anybody in the house, not even my sisters at the time. You get all kinds of opinions and thoughts on it. I’d rather be overly safe than regret that one time I was lax on something like I allowed somebody to come in without a mask, and now we’re both sick and we’re both going to die. This whole thing with this pandemic, I don’t even know where to begin with my thoughts or feelings on it. I guess the biggest part that irks me is that we were lied to for too long, and there was no action taken. Action should have been done sooner than later. Unfortunately, five months or whatever it is later, we’re still on that same boat. I just don’t get it. I don’t understand. I don’t know if somebody could help me understand it.
I totally hear you on that.
You’re freezing up again.
[TAPE PAUSED]
Can you hear me alright now?
Yes.
I want to bounce off of what you just said. I am glad you brought it up because this is what we are getting to the heart of with this pandemic. There really is no place to start, but we can start with a question I actually had when you said there was a delay in the information and being lied to about certain things. I am curious, where do you get the information that you need to keep yourself safe, keep you mom safe, and in a broader sense of what we are talking about to get yourself in housing? Where do you get your news from since this pandemic started?
Where I get it from mostly is TV. At my mom’s, I watched the same programs, but nothing like I was a few months ago. I usually watch MSNBC. I watch Morning Joe, Chris Cuomo, Anderson Cooper. They have different guests on, different doctors from different hospitals all through the country and even other countries that come on and give their professional opinions and advice. In the beginning, they were telling people not to wear a mask. I think how that got so confusing was if you have a cloth mask, that’s fine to wear. They were more concerned with people running out of masks in the health profession which they still have. My niece gets one mask per week at her job– a week, one. That makes no sense to me because if I use that and go see a patient and they’re sick, and then I go into another room to see another patient, does that mask have bacteria or germs on it from the other patient. I thought that’s why they change them after every patient, but because of the pandemic they do not have enough. They have to cut back and do these things. Who knows how many people ended up sick because the PPEs weren’t efficient enough or were being used for days at a time?
Your niece you mentioned, she is a healthcare worker.
Yes, both of my nieces are healthcare workers.
You are telling me that it is difficult to figure out when you are being told one thing, but then you are observing another, especially when it is somebody you know or care about. Do you feel like you are dealing with that on top of everything now in terms of social distancing, the pandemic, and shutdowns?
Yes, I worry about them. I’ve actually been saving the cloth, the masks that go around your ears, and they have the blue fabric in the front. I guess healthcare uses them. I’ve been saving them up, so I can give them to them. She can change it more than once a week. I’m sure you can buy boxes of them. I’ve seen some pharmacies where they have boxes and boxes of gloves, and they have masks now and hand sanitizers. I don’t know how bad it is still. Some places you hear were running out of this. Then, people say, “They’re lying. They have all this stockpiled.” I would imagine dealing with something on this level, being as severe as it is, supplies must be limited at times. Sure, they are going to run out of ventilators. What do you think, they have thousands of them? No. I’ve never been involved in politics. I’ve never really talked about it. This is my first year that I’ve signed up to vote. I did that about a month and a half ago because if we don’t start getting some smarts where we need it and have intelligent people running and doing things, you know, like science. How do you dispute something that’s been proven scientifically? How do you say it’s not real, it’s fake? They’re not right all the time, either. Like Doctor (Burke) said, once the warmer months got here, it sort of petered out a little. Go away some, and then it would come back again in the fall. Well, like I told people months ago, I even wrote to my one sister about it. This is when I was in New York, and it was real bad. They were bringing the medical ship, navy ship. I said to her, “This is going to be like a slow-moving wildfire.” I hate to be right, but that’s exactly what happened. You have it flaring up there and here and all these different states now. Granted, yes, finally the numbers are coming down, but still, I mean, it’s a mess. People killing themselves. People are taking their own lives, health professionals, because they can’t deal with it.
31:45
To your own credit, where do you feel like you fall in in terms of being connected to either what you know or what you see as you are getting this information? I know you have, as you mentioned, some experiences dealing with your mom and with being in between housing. What is something that is on your mind as you are watching this and sorting information out?
One of the things I’d like to talk about is I’m on Medicaid. I’m allowed transportation. They have different companies that will pick you up depending on whatever you’re in. I have a big problem with the one company because three times now I've witness with my own eyes. The one time, the van pulled up in front of the clinic I go to in New Brunswick; four females got out, and the driver who had a beard, white male, none of them had masks on. This is about maybe a month ago. You want me to go into a van where there’s no people with a mask on. My mom says, “Well, you wear a mask.” I said, “Yes, but mom, if somebody coughs or sneezes or yells, droplets come out of their mouth, so the mask wouldn’t do it. I would probably end up touching it or something.” I said, “I’m not putting myself in that risk.” I pay cash to get driven to my appointments, and I just witnessed it again the other day. At the hotel, they picked two clients up. The one had the mask around his neck, and I’m watching him. The driver didn’t have one on, and he didn’t put it on. They drove away, all three of them, no masks on. I don’t feel comfortable being put in a situation like that. I don’t feel I should have to be in a situation like that. I would think most people that are taking medical transportation must have some type of medical issue. Some I would think are more superior to others. It might be a broken foot. That I wouldn’t worry so much about, but if I had a liver transplant or something, I’m going to worry. I have heart issues. I’ve had two open-heart surgeries already. I got a mechanical valve, and I just had an aneurism removed from my heart. I have high blood pressure. I have high cholesterol, so I’m told I need to be very careful. I remember back in April, when I first moved to my mom’s, I had gotten one these. Actually, it was the N95 mask I was using, the white ones.
Are those the ones with the filter?
Yes, I had them when I did construction for dust. I wore it to the store, to Wawa, and everybody was looking at me, staring at me. This is back in April, and I was so self-conscious about it. When I got home, I told my mom, “Mom, you would not believe the stares I got. People were looking at me. Maybe I shouldn’t wear it if I’m going to be getting looks.” She says, “No, no, no, you wear it.” Then, a month later now, everybody’s wearing them. There’s been a lot of stages going through this. I have a lot of opinions and thoughts on it, but I’m not a professional. I don’t think it takes a professional to hear when you have cases climbing that something needs to be done there. Things need to be shut down or whatever needs to be done. Another thing I don’t understand is if a student comes back positive and they quarantine the whole classroom, where do they put all those kids? If they go home, they’re exposing other people now. Do they put them in hotels? Where are these people going? I worry about that being at the hotel. Are people being sent here from the hospital because they have nowhere? This is such a mess. I’m not as worried as I was in the beginning. I was probably on the line of being a little paranoid at times. When I look back on it, I really don’t think I was. I think I was just being overly cautious.
You were being careful.
Yes, I wouldn’t go anywhere for weeks.
37:01
As you said with your previous health issues and things that you were paying attention to in your own health, would you say that places you at a high risk or vulnerability?
Yes, I’m sure because the heart is a couple of my issues, but I have chronic bronchitis. I’ve had that probably over forty times. I’ve had pneumonia numerous times. I have Hepatitis C which affects the liver that I’ve had for over thirty years untreated. To be honest with you, I don’t think if I got the flu I would make it with the shape my body’s in. When you abuse chemicals and don’t eat properly because you’re depressed or whatever it is, the body pays for it. I’m shocked I’m still here. I know I’m relatively young, but I mean the things that have happed to me. I even got a fungal infection one time in my eye. It actually happened at the hotel I’m staying at now. It’s where it happened about fourteen years ago. I ended up losing the sight in my left eye behind it. I am prone to getting infections. I have cellulitis in my legs, so I worry probably more than I should. I would rather do that and be safe in the end, than throw caution to the wind and in two days be on a ventilator. A mask is a lot better than a ventilator.
That is a really good point. I would just say it is good that you are here. There is a lot in that, and I really appreciate you sharing that part. Do you feel, like, with the pandemic in full force as it is now, has that affected your ability to seek shelter, or to work through your homelessness, or to get the help, care, and attention that you need? If it did, or if it does, what do you feel like is the biggest change with all this going on?
Probably that a lot of assistance like welfare is closed. Board of Social Services is closed right now. You can call on the phone to get things, but it’s one thing doing that way. I’ve been waiting almost a week now for forms from them for food, so I can get food. I’m still waiting. I understand the post office is having some issues. Maybe that’s why instead of getting it in two days, it takes seven to ten days to get stuff now. I don’t have picture ID. When I was in the hospital getting my last heart surgery, my wallet was stolen while I was there.
I am sorry to hear that.
Thanks. It had my ID and my Social Security card. To try and get a Social Security card, I have my birth certificate which I got through another organization before the pandemic. Now I need a Social Security card, and because I have no picture ID, they said the only thing I can do is to get a doctor to write a letter saying that I’m their patient, that they know who I am, and this is my date of birth. The doctor’s name has to be on the heading of the paper. That was before the pandemic that they told me this, back in January when I went. Not being able to get to these places to deal with or do things, it’s slowed down my process of being able to get picture ID, so I can change my bank account to another bank and be able to do some things finally. Maybe I can get a driver’s license and get a part-time job driving or something.
Do you feel like paperwork and ID and your ability to secure those things has a lot to do with your receiving assistance or being able to get into work or housing?
Certain things, yes, for sure, like I couldn’t get a job anywhere right now. I have no picture ID, and that’s the main thing they want. I have no Social Security card so without those two things– I’m in the welfare system. I’ve been in it for years off and on, so they have my information. They never even asked me for ID. Actually, this housing they’re giving me, two years ago I couldn’t have gotten this because they had a law that once you received so many months of housing benefits from welfare, you were terminated. You got no more for the rest of your life.
There was a cap.
Yes, two years ago they changed that. I don’t know exactly how. I think it has to be a period of seven years you didn’t receive housing help through them. Now, I was re-eligible again to get this housing. Instead of waiting on the streets for this voucher, you know, I can wait in a hotel.
43:40
Is this connected with the Reformed Church of Highland Park?
In a way, I don’t know if you know Jason. He works for PATH on George Street.
I am familiar with some of the involvement but more curious to know how you worked your way into there.
Somebody just asked me the other day how I met Austin. I don’t even remember. They have a thrift shop here, and I love thrift stores. I like to sell things. I was selling things on eBay. I stopped doing all of that, but I would come, and I would buy certain things that I knew I would make money on. I would resell them. Why not? That was one of the things, and I think that’s how. I came up, and somebody told me about them and what he did, so I approached him. It’s got to be close to two years now that I’ve known him. Then Jason, the housing person, I met him. Actually, he had helped one of my friends get a place, and I was visiting my friend when he stopped over. He told me, “Here’s my number.” I told him my situation which he probably already knew because he used to see me at the soup kitchen. He also works there. I gave him a call and so far, so good. The only thing I’m not too big on, and I get it when people hear somebody complain, “Oh, the hotel is a little dirty;” well, it’s better than being under the bridge, right? Yes, it is, but it would be nice to have a clean pillow that’s not all stained with whatever to lay my head on. That would be nice. Yesterday, I found a mouse in my room, alive. This morning, I got to the front desk and tell the lady. “A mouse?” I said, “Yes, a mouse.” “We’ve never had mice here.” I don’t know if she was thinking maybe I brought it with me. I don’t know what she’s thinking. I wanted to ask her, but I didn’t. I bit my tongue, but I wanted to ask her, “Well then, why are there mouse glue traps all over the rooms? Why are those out if you don’t have mice here?”
Do you feel like your voice is being heard when you are coming from that place that you are coming from and asking for minimum living standards?
This morning, I feel like she just didn’t believe me. Whether or not she believed me, I don’t think that was the case. I think she knows the real deal, the real story that there are mice there, but she’s going to say what she’s going to say to make it look like, “It’s immaculate here, why would a mouse be in your room?” We’re living right on the edge of the woods. I’m surprised there’s not snakes that come in the room once in a while. I’ll just call my housing guy just to let him know that I told them. I didn’t even want to tell them because I don’t want to start no conflicts or issues. I was going to try and get it myself, but what if I get bit or something: “Why didn’t you tell us?”
47:28
You are trying to keep a record of it– so you said you have a point of contact for when those things happen.
Yes, because they contacted me last Monday. Apparently, I had gotten into an argument with a housekeeper. I had told Jason that I wanted to clean my own room, and they won’t let me do that. Okay, you want to clean; I won’t be there when you do it. Apparently, I got into an argument with the housekeeper; I got mad, and I punched a hole in my wall. Welfare called me up inquiring about it. I was all upset because now they’re telling me when I asked, “Will I be able to go back tonight?” They said, “We’ll have to see.” I didn’t even do it. I said, “I don’t even know what you are talking about.” They had the wrong room number, the wrong person. I’m upset. My mom was upset. It just bothers me that you don’t find out all the facts, or you don’t look into it all the way. They said it was the room next to mine. It wasn’t the room next to mine, so I don’t know how that was miscommunicated there. That could ruin somebody’s day.
If you do not mind, I was going to switch gears a little to some other questions going back to what you mentioned about thrifting and that being one of your practices. You developed an eye for it. Do you have an artistic expression or something you do creatively?
I used to draw. I like to draw. I used to like doing poetry. That’s what you mean?
Yes, of course. How long were you involved in drawing or writing poetry?
The drawing, actually I didn’t start that until I was around nineteen. I didn’t even know I really could draw at all. I started doing it out of how-to-draw books. That’s how I started. I can’t draw out of my head. I have to be looking at something to draw it. The poetry, that’s been off and on probably for twenty years, twenty-five years. I remember when I was on Facebook years ago, I had posted some of my poetry. People thought I was going to harm myself, so I stopped posting things like that on my poetry. I guess some of it. I wasn’t thinking of hurting myself. I didn’t look at it that way, but other people will read something and get a different interpretation than the next person.
That is how art and poetry works.
The other thing I like doing– I used to get wooden plaques when Pokémon was really big years ago. I would draw the character, and then I would put it on the wood. I would paint it, and I would personalize it like, “Joey’s room.” I was selling them at a bakery. The bakery would let me put them in there to sell them. Somebody came in one day and complained, wanted to know if I had the copyrights to be doing it, so they told me I had to take my stuff out of there. [laughter]
That is unfortunate. How did that affect you? Did you give up drawing after that?
I gave up advertising it like that, but I would still do it here and there. Probably the past three or four years, I really haven’t drawn anything, very few things, no poetry in years. Actually, the past months I’ve been dealing with probably the most severe depression I’ve ever suffered in my life. I’ve been dealing with depression since I’ve been young, a teenager, and this was the worst. I don’t know if it was a combination of things. That’s what I think it was. I can’t go nowhere now. I’m taking care of my elderly mother that is not pleasant seeing what she is going through on a daily basis. I don’t know, or was it not being on my meds because I’m back on my meds now for just over a month, maybe a month and a half. I moved to the hotel, so now I don’t have the stressor of taking care of my mom. Now, I have the stressor of worrying every day, “Is she okay? I hope she didn’t fall,” all of those things going on. I lost my train of thought.
That is alright. We were talking about drawing and poetry. Then, you said that your ongoing struggle with mental health affects your ability to do that or changes the time that you spend working on it.
Yes, I was talking about dealing with the depression. I would go two days without eating. I would lay in bed. The only time I would get up is to go to the bathroom or to get a glass of water, and this went on for months. Back in December, I had reached out for help, and I was sent to an inpatient facility. They abruptly stopped one of my meds which you’re not supposed to abruptly stop because of withdrawals. For the next month, I couldn’t even spend Christmas with my family. I was so sick. That went on for a month. When I told the lady I’m working with now, she apologized. I don’t know why she’s apologizing. She said, “I’m so sorry they did that to you. They should have never did that. They should know better.” Yes, I know they should, but that’s what they told me to do. I was following their advice. After not being on the meds for months, I’m sure that didn’t help, and it was hard climbing back up out of that hole again. I’m part way out of it. I feel better today than I felt three weeks ago.
54:59
That is always good to hear. Do you think your ability to make art or work on something creative is connected to whether or not you have shelter and whether or not you are in a home, or do you feel like, as you mentioned earlier, that is just a completely unrelated thing with the pandemic happening? What do you feel like is your strongest connection to your art that allows you to creatively express yourself?
What gets in the way of me doing that?
Yes, or the other way around, what helps you out?
Right, I think the main thing that gets in my way of doing that is depression. Even when I’m really not too depressed, I’ll think about it. Like, I brought my art stuff with me to the hotel. I brought my bag of stuff with me in case I feel like it. I’ll get the thought of doing something. I'll sit on the edge of the bed, then, “Ah, I don’t feel like it.” I lay back down and watch TV. The intention is there. It’s just the follow through that’s not too good right now. Maybe tonight I’ll go home and draw something. [laughter]
That is great. I was just asking to know. I am guessing that it is somewhat connected then. Another thing that was on my mind and our minds, do you have a faith or a spiritual background that helps you through these times, any spiritual practices or religion?
In the beginning, you asked. I forget what you asked about what religion I practice.
We were asking questions, but this is more specifically.
Yes, I was an altar boy, raised Roman Catholic. I joke with people and I tell them, “I’m now a recovering Catholic.”
What does that mean to you?
I don’t think any one religion is better or worse than the other. I just feel as long as I believe in something greater than me that put me here, because this wasn’t of my own doing, so there must be something greater than me out there. I do believe in God and Jesus Christ, but I do have a lot of confusion about religion because you hear different thigs from different people: “You shouldn’t do this.” I was talking to an ex-girlfriend, and I was telling her about some of the saints. “I hope you don’t pray to them. That’s a false prophet.” This is coming from a very spiritual, religious person. I don’t know. If that’s helping you get through whatever you’re dealing with, then by all means pray to whatever. Pray to that doorknob if it will get you through the next day or the next minute, whatever it takes. I don’t go to church. I haven’t been to church in some years now. I would probably go back to a church. I don’t know if it would necessarily be Catholic. My dad said it doesn’t matter before he, you know. When we would talk about it years ago, he said, “Just go to a church. You’ll feel better. You’ll meet people. There are good people there.” He said, “It doesn’t have to be a Catholic church. It could be any church.” He’s right because it’s all just about the same thing. I think what’s gotten me– yes, I’ve prayed during this pandemic some days dealing with what I was going through or what other people were going through. Mostly, I feel a close connection to nature, to the outdoors. I love fishing. It wouldn’t bother me to sit by a body of water for eight hours and not fish, just to be outdoors and smell the air and be free. That brings me serenity and comfort.
1:00:00
Your connection to nature as your spirituality, as you are saying, is that something you are able to engage in right now?
Yes, I just– probably a week and a half ago– I just started fishing this year. I’ve been fishing since I’ve been a little kid. I mean a toddler I’ve been fishing since. I couldn’t even do that because of my depression. I didn’t even want to. I would bring my stuff with me. When I would come to town, I’d go down to the river, and it would stay in my bag. I wouldn’t even fish. Now, I’m fishing almost every day. Yes, I would like to be doing other things also besides fishing every day. I’m going to see if they’ll let me volunteer here in the thrift shop because they have a lot of stuff that needs to be gone through that they’ve had piled up for months and months. I got to start doing other things. I’m not going to say. I think fishing is positive for me, but positive things that help me and help someone else. I feel that’s what it’s about.
I hear that. Whether it is fishing or service for other folks, is that something that you prefer to deal with alone or with someone else or with a group? I know you mentioned the connection in the conversations you were having with your father and that thing that came up in conversation with an ex-girlfriend. When you connect to your faith or to your spirituality, is that something you do alone or something you prefer in a group? What is your relationship with that?
It’s probably done mostly by myself. One of the guys that I hang around with, we haven’t done it in a while now, but I used to bring down these little prayer books. We would read a prayer in the morning, and we’d go fishing or hang out for the day. There’s not too many people who I feel that close to. I don’t even know if you have to really be close to somebody to talk about that. The person would have to be receptive of it of course. Certain things I don’t like to discuss with people because the views can vary widely to all different extremes. A lot of times, I’ll even walk away from conversations like that because I know where it’s leading. You got to be careful who you talk about with certain things like that. Not everybody agrees about politics and religion and money. They tell you those are certain things you really shouldn’t talk about. They lead to arguments and bitterness and bickering. People can’t agree.
I have heard that advice for sure. In connection with the pandemic, do you feel like you are pulled away or towards something different? Do you feel like there is a before and after with the way that you see the world?
Yes, I’m just not too sure what it’s going to look like a year from now. I wish we could see that far ahead. I worry a lot because I hear things, “If a certain person is president, they’re going to take our benefits. They’re going to cut Social Security.” I was told this yesterday. Again, it happened. My stomach, I feel the pit in my stomach drop. How could they even think about doing something like that to people that are either retired or down and out or have serious medical or mental health issues? How do you just tell them, “Good luck?” I hope it doesn’t happen. I worry about housing. Are they going to run out of funding for it at some point? Would they tell you ahead of time? A lot of uncertainty, that’s for just about everybody.
1:05:09
Besides the things that you are sharing now that you are worried we might not have in the future, what do you feel most hopeful about that either you or we as a community will have? What are you most hopeful about?
Just because part of the country was shut down or is shut down, there are still people out there that are working, that are helping others, that are helping people like me. I don’t even know if all of them get paid, and they’re doing their service. I think this is going to be a big eye-opener for a lot of people, the mental health and addictions because, from what I’ve heard, everything’s on the rise: suicides, addictions, sales of alcohol, sales of marijuana. Everything’s on the uptick to help people deal with what we’re dealing with, and everybody deals with it in different ways. Some are good ways, some are bad, but I think it just exposes the different systems they have, the mental health and the legal systems and the welfare systems. I think that now that really exposes it, and people really see how desperate people are. You got hundreds of cars lined up for food. It’s just heartbreaking at times to what people are going through. Now, they’re going to be evicted. They’re saying up to forty million people are facing eviction in this country. Forty million, that’s unbelievable. If even a part of that became true, the streets look bad enough as it is with the poor people out there now. I don’t know if there’s enough assistance and moneys to even be able to help all these people out.
Do you wonder if it even exists to begin with?
Yes, yes.
In that light, if you were to meet a stranger or if someone was to hear your story who you otherwise might not be able to reach, what is it that you would want them to know about your experiences or about navigating these resources or about being homeless? What is it that you would tell somebody who maybe doesn’t know anything about your experience?
To be persistent in the process but not a pain in the butt [laughter], you know, it’s not an easy process. It’s not a short process, but it’s a process for me that’s going to be worth it in the end when I can finally have an apartment that’s my own and that only I have to be in there if I choose, to have that freedom. Now, I forgot the question again.
1:09:03
I think I made a long version. The short version of the question would just be what is the first and last thing that you would want people to know about you and what you have been through? You can take your time.
Right, dealing with the depression has been the biggest thing of my life besides the addiction, and I think they fuel each other. Going through this depression this time has opened up my eyes to different things. Yes, I wanted to give up, but my beliefs won’t allow it. My beliefs get in the way of me harming myself because I feel if I did that there’s going to be repercussions. I don’t want to deal with those repercussions of taking my own life, so that’s one of the things that keeps me from doing it. Not that I don’t think about it, but I wouldn’t act on it ever. I don’t believe, but I don’t know because you hear about people being severely depressed. There was just a thirty-six-year-old girl. She’s affiliated with the New York Giants. I think her dad’s the owner or something. She just committed suicide over the weekend, thirty-six years old, suffered from depression her whole life. Her family said she had suffered terribly. Yes, you suffer. I suffered, and I didn’t think it would get any better. When you’re down so deep, you just don’t see a way out. You don’t think it’ll get better, and you do something you regret, and that other people are going to regret. I just keep in my head to never give up, just get through the next minute, get through the next hour. So what if you got to sleep to get rid of the thoughts? Go to sleep if that helps you. I’m not a big person on advocating alcohol or drugs or things like that. Sometimes those help people deal with things. They’ve helped me at times. I’m sure I could’ve gotten through it without it, also. I don’t recommend that as a way because it just makes you more depressed. Alcohol’s a depressant. You’re depressed and you put more depressant stuff in you, you’re going to be even more depressed. Then, your thought process is not the same and the things you do are not the same, so you may end up doing something you’re going to regret. I just keep in mind that I’ve been through this for a lot of years. For brief periods, I go through it. Every year, this happens every year. It never lasted this long, but I’m on the other side of it almost again. I’m building back. I stopped talking to people for months. I didn’t talk to nobody. I’m back to talking to people, and I’m back to fishing and doing things. Now, I know again when I get depressed again that I will get through this. It’s going to be painful, but I’ll get through it somehow, someway. I have family, and it affects them tremendously, my depression. They don’t understand it. My sister, I was with her the other day, and she says, “I really wish you can get a handle on your depression,” so do I. If there was a magic pill or something, but there’s not. Yes, the meds help me, but I also have to do certain things, too. I can’t lay in bed now all day long. I’d like to some days, but now I force myself where I wasn’t doing that before. I wasn’t forcing myself to get up and do things. I know things will get better, and tomorrow it will be something else.
I really appreciate the way you put that. think it is really valuable advice. On that note, you said, “Getting to the next minute, getting to the next day.” I do want to remind you that we have as much time as you would like. We are coming up on the one hour that we scheduled. Is there something we did not talk about that you still want to mention, whether it relates to what you were just saying about your experiences, whether it relates to you finding your way to a home, or whether it relates to the pandemic going on right now? Is there anything at all that you felt like you really needed to get out?
One thing I do notice, people seem a lot more short-tempered these days, easy to fly off the handle. It’s the tension, the stress, the uncertainty, “Do I have a job tomorrow? Will I have a job? Am I going to have a way to take care of the kids?” Everybody’s under just so much stress. I don’t know what the right thing to do is. I wish I had the answers, but I don’t even know if the professionals really have the answers because they’re finding out more and more every day. That’s why. It’s a new virus, so yes, that’s going to happen. It’s not acting like they thought it would act now, and it’s affecting kids. That’s disturbing in its own way because who knows these kids that get it. They might just be asymptomatic or might just get a little sick. Who knows twenty years from now what that’s going to do to other parts of their body? I saw an eight-year-old kid that was in a hospital in New York. Eight-years-old, they showed a still picture of him, and his eyes were all glassy looking. He had a mask on. his poor kid had two strokes and a heart attack from the virus, and he made it out. He made it. They were interviewing him, and he said he really didn’t think he was going to make it.
1:16:53
Is there anything else like that, that you either observed on the news like this or in your day to day, that brings this up for you?
Yes, I’ll tell you what happened yesterday with me with the masks. I'm big with the mask thing. They say bandanas don’t really work, but if you fold it up four or five times, I feel it’s better than not having anything on. Something's better than nothing. I noticed a lot with the masks, people wear them below their nose. What happens if you were to sneeze? “Oh, I’ll lift it up in time.” I see people walking around like that in stores. Yesterday, I was in a 7-Eleven in New Brunswick. It was early in the morning, six-thirty, seven o’clock. Both workers, no mask, it was around their neck, the workers at 7-Eleven. Then, there was a customer that didn’t have his. Now, I had mine on, and my friend had his on. The customer was the first one I approached, and I said, “Excuse me, that mask is supposed to be on your face.” I don’t like doing things like that because I don’t know if he’s going to say, “F you,” and come at me or something. I get so aggravated at the ignorance and the nerve that these people have that they think, “I’m not going to spread it to nobody if I have it.” How do you know? They’re telling you, “If you don’t have that mask on and you talk, you can spread it if you have it.” What’s the big deal of wearing something like that for however long you have to in a store or outside? I don’t wear it all the time. If I’m walking down the street and there’s nobody walking, there’s no reason for me to. I’m not going to keep it, but if there’s people coming, I’ll put it back on. I don’t think people get it. They politicize things. If you wear a mask, you’re against them. If you don’t wear a mask, you’re for them. Listen, I am for or against no one. I’m for taking care of myself and the people around me in hopes that they’re safe. I just don’t see a lot of that caring type of thing. If you’re going to be that careless in a store where the sign says you must have a mask, if you’re going to be like that in a store, how are you in public? In the bars when they open the bars, I understand people need alcohol. They like to drink. Event throwing parties, they’re throwing Covid-19 parties.
I have heard of those.
When I heard that, I was like, “Are you kidding me?” There was a nurse. I don’t know if she was from Arizona. She was on TV, and she said, “Normally, I don’t do interviews or anything like that, but I want people to hear this. I treated a twenty-nine-year-old kid that went to a Covid-19 party. He thought it was all a hoax. Well, guess what? He died this morning.” People that think it’s a hoax, “It’s not real. I’ll be okay if I get it.” You don’t know. We don’t know. I have less stress when I have one on. I understand it’s for me to protect others from me. That’s part of the reason I wear it, but the bigger part of the reason why I wear it, not to sound ignorant, is for me because I’m no good to nobody if I get sick and die. I’m not good to no one then I worry about my mom, her being old. She has a healthcare person that comes three times a week. The lady used to do everything for my mom, make her breakfast. We have her doing none of that. My mom doesn’t want her touching the food. I don’t blame her. The lady has to wear a mask in the house. The one day I was there, I come into the room, and she’s vacuuming. The lady had the mask down around her neck. She put it on when she saw me, but that’s how some people are taking it. Now, she leaves my mom’s house to go to another older client’s house. If you’re careless– that’s why I didn’t want the lady coming back. That’s exactly why I told my mom I’m not comfortable with her being here like this. I just pray my mom doesn’t get it.
1:22:15
Yes, obviously we would not want anybody to have to deal with it. If it is alright with you, I will just ask you the last question here. Matt, where do you see yourself on the other side of this moment that we are all in or the moment that you are going through in your own life?
Ultimately, what I would like to see is to have my own place, and eventually return back to selling things either on eBay or getting a vehicle where I can go to the flea market and sell things, and doing volunteering here and there. There’s a lot of things I would like. I would like to travel around and go to the, you know. If I had a vehicle, most of the days I probably would have been down at the beach hanging out down there by myself. I don’t have that luxury right now, so I do other things. I go fishing here down at the river or at the lake. Hopefully, I’ll be stable enough to be able to do those things, and my depression will be a little more under control. I would even like at some point to return to work to some capacity, part-time. I like to work with my hands, landscaping and painting, but because of my health issues. I mean, I still do a lot of it, or I was last year at one point I was still scraping metal, lifting things that were heavy. I don’t think it’s highly recommended, but they tell me as long as it’s not too much. Hopefully, I can return to work and maintain that because it’s not so much getting a job or finding side work, it’s more having the motivation. That goes back to the depression. A lot of times I think I’m lazy. I say to myself, “What are you, lazy? Get out of bed already. You’re just lazy.” I’m beating myself up even more now, and that’s not helping me. Sometimes I feel like it’s a form of laziness, like I have no motivation. Obviously, it’s not. I must have been depressed because when I’m not depressed, I come and talk to people. I go fishing, and I haven’t been doing that for months. Something’s working. Something changed, and I just hope to continue to be a productive member of society. Even though I’m in the boat I’m in, I’m still big on helping others.
That is great. Thank you so much. We hope for the best obviously. We will see how it goes. Was there anything else that you would like to add?
Do they want a follow-up interview, maybe like David Letterman? [laughter]
For recording purposes, we will say this is the end of this interview
[First clip ends]
PART 2
September 21, 2020
Austin: Okay, you are set Matt and then remember, when you're done, just hit the stop button and come knock on my door.
Alright.
Austin: Okay, enjoy.
Hello.
Austin: Matt, part two, the sequel. I'll just open the door and hand you your (dinner?).
00:23
Okay, thank you. How've you been?
Alright, I've been good, how are you?
Hanging in, hanging in, yes.
Okay, well it's good to see you again.
You too.
It's been almost a month.
Right.
Or, a little over a month actually, yes, so what's going on? What's kind of been going on for you this past month?
Well, one thing, I've been spending more time outside of my residence where for numerous months, I didn't go anywhere. Very rarely did I go somewhere.
Yes.
So it's a big change and just trying to get not to lax in my ways and behaviors with being around others, so.
Yes, what kind of places have you been going to? You're just going outside? Or, are you running errands?
No, I mainly stay outside. I go down here in New Brunswick down at the river and the canal, and most of the days I fish when I go down and there's one guy that's always down there, just about every day, and I've been friends with him for about thirty-one years now, so, you know, we're–
Okay.
For the most part, it's good.
Yes.
But I mainly go for the fishing. I want to fish when I'm down there.
Yes, that was the last thing we were talking about when we last talked and we got cut off on time.
Yes.
Do you walk down there with all your gear?
I have a bicycle now.
Oh okay.
And I brought it to the bike shop to get fixed. I got it back the other day and it's from where I'm at to New Brunswick, it's six miles.
Okay.
Yes, so, it takes about twenty, about twenty-five minutes, yes.
All right, and it's nice, I've actually been hearing that bikes are kind of hard to come by right now.
Hard to come by. Yes, my sister and brother-in-law have been looking. Yes, it's, Walmart doesn't have them on their shelves and I don't know if that's because of restrictions that have been put up or if they're not shipping from China right now. I'm not sure what the issue is.
I'm not sure either, yes.
Yes, I would've thought somebody like Walmart would have an inventory of things like that. I mean, they ran out.
Yes, it's funny. You were saying they ran out completely?
Yes, there's not one bicycle there, not one. I've never seen that.
I was going to say, you kind of took the words out of my mouth because I actually rode my bike often. I have two bikes so that, if one needs repair–
Right, well, that's what I like to do. I like to have two bikes too.
Yes, I was getting one fixed the other day, and I go to the shop, and the only bikes that are left are these fancy e-bikes.
That are like, yes.
Two or three grand. The guy was just like, "Yes, the only bikes we have in here are the bikes we're working on."
Yes.
It's kind of an interesting byproduct of what's happening. I'm not sure why, but.
Yes, it took me a week to get my bike back and all I did, get done was have brake cables and gear cables put on.
Okay.
But when I went back, like you said, they have the e-bikes there and they start around three thousand and on up. I saw one there for seven thousand but yes, they must have, they have to have seventy-five to a hundred bicycles in there, waiting to be repaired.
Sorry, you cut out a little bit there, you were talking about when you went back to pick up your bike.
Yes, there's probably seventy-five to a hundred bicycles that are there right now to be fixed.
Wow.
I've been dealing with that bike shop for thirty-five years and he told me that they're more than busy. They can't keep up.
Yes.
They're having a very hard time trying to keep up, yes.
Wow.
But that.
Which bike shop was that?
Kim's. Kim's Bike Shop, yes.
Okay.
But I would say in another several weeks, a month maybe, people aren't going to be riding their bikes no more. When it gets cold out, people don't want to and that's the other scary thing. Now, we're going into the cold season, so people aren't going to be outside as much. So, that means they're going to be congregating inside now and I think that's when they talk about the second wave, it's going to explode because of that. You know where, here in New Jersey it's basically at an even level right now and– but I believe once people are put back inside together and it's going to– it's not going to be good.
Yes, and especially if it's been like the last couple years like in New Jersey, we get like, we don't really have a fall anymore kind of like.
Right, right.
We go from having a couple weeks of fair weather and then it's just cold.
Yes, yes. Look at last year, we had no snow just about.
Yes, yes.
I never had experienced a winter like that.
Yes, it's hard to put a finger on it.
Well, yes. I have my own opinions about that. I think its part to do with the global warming. I mean, if you look at all the hurricanes we're getting and things are increasing and extreme temperatures. I mean, I heard something where they were talking. I don't know if it was about Phoenix, Arizona. In fifty years, the temperature might rise another ten degrees. I can't even imagine.
Yes, so I'll be honest with you, I kind of study those changes. Just the degree that I finished and I read up on it but I guess it's what I do now, this is the first time in recorded human history that we've seen changes like these. So, I think, yes, you're absolutely right. What we need to say is, we don't know. We don't know what's going to happen.
Right.
Because we never had to expect it.
Yes, yes.
With these kinds of temperature changes.
We are destroying. We are, most of us are destroying this planet whether they know it or not.
Yes, yes.
Like I was– I don't know if I told you, but I pick up a lot of garbage when I'm down the river and all these plastic bottles and Styrofoam and cans, and then people hang out down there and they'll drink or whatever and not even put their stuff in the garbage can. They just leave it.
Yes.
I don't get that, you know, I don't know if it's laziness or someone else will do it or what their thinking is.
8:38
You've lived here for a couple years now, right? Do you feel like it's different, way different, these days?
Well, I grew up in this area.
Yes.
It's different in New Brunswick as far as, I think, as far as the crime rate and areas that have drugs. It used to be a lot of areas and Remsen Avenue was the main area. Yes, it's still there but nothing, I mean, nothing compared to what it was. Not even close, I mean. There'd be people up at the park, Feaster Park and on Remsen Avenue and on Throop, all of these streets. Now, maybe one or two blocks, you know, where they are.
Yes.
So, it's not as bad as it was at one point.
Yes.
Yes.
But with the garbage you're seeing?
Yes, that's always been an issue down there and, I mean, when you have the tidal water, it brings it up onto the land sometimes and I don't mind. I actually like that because now I can pick stuff up that was in the water.
There you go.
I know they have Raritan River Shed Water Group, I think, is the name of them and I've helped them a couple times when they come down there to clean. They give out the black bags.
Okay.
Whoever is down there usually with me, they help also and we do a couple of bags and it makes me feel good and you hope that people will see the change, that it's a lot cleaner and they're like, "Oh yes, let's keep it like this."
Yes.
Most people don't, they just take it for granted.
Why do you think that is?
I think some people, some might not realize how one bottle, one can, can affect things. I think others care less. Others, their thinking might be, "Ah, that's what the Parks Department's for, to clean up my garbage. That's what my taxes are paying for." So, people have all– but it will look so much nicer if people just took their garbage and maybe some other garbage that's laying around that wasn't theirs.
Yes, like one plus one kind of.
Yes, yes, and another thing that, down here in the river, the bridge that goes from Highland Park to New Brunswick, there's an area there in the park there, Boyd Park ,where they took down all these trees, and I went up to the truck one day and talked to the guy and I said what he's planning on putting trees back up and he says, "Yes, we're going to be putting some trees back up," and me, that's another big thing. I feel if you take a tree down, you should have to put a tree up somewhere, you know, because chances are, all three might not live so but yes, I have a hard time when they clear lots and.
I feel the same exact way. Once because, I guess to just bring it, I haven't spent nearly as much time by the river as you have from when you last told me, when we last talked, for you, it's been almost like a daily thing that you've been out there.
Yes, unless I wasn't in the area living or something. Or, I was confined somewhere but yes, for the past thirty-one years.
Yes, so I'm considering you now as a part of, kind of resource on the situation for like thirty years. What do you feel like other people's responses have been to the way that that area is changing?
A lot of people are upset, they get angry, like I told you last time, I had a confrontation with the netters down there, they were netting.
Okay.
I have a big problem with that. I understand that people have to eat, I get that, but don't destroy the waterway.
What is that for folks who don't fish? How would you describe wet netting?
They use these cast nets and it's a net that you grab with both hands and you throw it out into the water away from you and it lands on top of the water and it settles down to the bottom and any fish, then when you pull it, they're all caught in there. Turtles, they'll keep. I mean, they keep everything.
Wow.
Where we fish, in the canal down there, we've noticed the fishing has declined big, a lot, over the past several years now. I was there the one morning and I was coming over the Highland Park Bridge going to the New Brunswick side and I smelt gas, it was like gas or something on the road. Well, I get down to the river, to the canal, there's heating fuel, all in the water there in the canal.
Oh my god.
So, we called the fire department and the police, and before you knew it there was all kinds of people down there and they put out these buoys to contain it and they cleaned it up the best they could and they don't know where it came from, what. There's a pipe right there where we're at and they said it could've been in the pipeline and when it rained the other day, it just pushed it down but there's two companies in that area that use heating fuel and neither one would you have an easy time fighting. You know, you got the Hyatt and J&J, so you try and fight them giants but it's wrong if they're doing, if they are in fact doing that. First of all, they shouldn't be doing it but yes, they couldn't prove where it came from but they said it was about fifty gallons, so yes.
God, what's the last you heard about that?
Nothing, nothing.
Situation.
Yes, I go down there, I still see, once in a while, the water turn like a bluish color in certain areas where the oil still is, but they said that the heating fuel or whatever it's called, heating oil, I don't know what they called it, they said it stays on top of the water, it doesn't go down to the bottom.
Right, it doesn't sink.
Right. So, but I'm sure, there's some that got on the grass and the rocks and things like that but.
I think we can both assume that that's just not good.
No, no.
Yes.
That river's been polluted down here, the Raritan for a lot of– lot of years. There used to be factories and warehouses and paint companies and they were dumping everything in this river, you know.
Yes.
I heard, about twenty years ago, I was told that if this river, if it wasn't polluted anymore, it would take a hundred years to clean itself.
My god.
But it's still, now they're finding high levels of fecal bacteria in there and they're not sure where that's coming from. They don't know if a pipe burst somewhere or so, and people eat the fish out of there. I wouldn't even think of it.
17:14
Yes, what do you think it is? Who do you think, who do you consider is in charge of what should happen at this river? That's like a big question because we talked about how for basically a century you got– had companies and people just dumped whatever they wanted to.
Yes, yes.
What's the situation now? Did you have to call the cops when you saw that?
The oil?
The oil, yes.
Oh yes, if we didn't call them, they would have never came, if we didn't call. But as far as I think who should patrol that river, I mean, with people keeping illegal size fish but a lot of them are very poor people.
Sure.
So, but, on the other hand, if you're to give allowances to that group, well, what about this group, what about my group? You know, and then it becomes a mess and that's why they have these laws.
Yes.
And the reason why there's limits on these fish is because they've become depleted over the years because of overfishing and I think, mainly it's the netters, from the netting they do. I mean, I could be wrong, it could be, I think it's a combination but I don't think the anglers, the fisherman, I don't think we take nearly as much as a boat takes. All them boats in a year, they, all the fish and yes, there's–
Just going based on what you see, break it down for me. What's the law and then what are people actually doing because it never always lines up for you?
Right, well, with any saltwater fishing, in New Jersey, I think just about all of them now, have limits on them. Size limits and how many you can keep. Like striped bass, you're allowed one but if you have a special tag, I think it's called a trophy tag, you can keep another one, but it has to be in between so many inches, the second one. Bluefish, which, growing up, when I used to fish in the ocean, they were so plentiful out there, I mean, they talk about a school of fish and it'd be a huge area of fish jumping out of the water and the seagulls chasing the baitfish and they put a limit on them. It was twenty, went down to ten, and now I'm told that it's even lowered more. I don't know why we're losing fish like they say we are, if it's the global warming, pollution, a combination but I notice it, the decrease in the amount of fish that I catch now and–
Yes, just by you going out there and fishing.
Yes, yes.
So, I'm really, really curious about this actually. Do you feel like, because you mentioned your friend, and we just got on a call with, do you feel like you check in with other people who are fishing?
Oh yes, we do, yes.
Is there an honor code, is there an ethic for other people who are fishing out there? Is it all word of mouth or do you get people to come down?
There might be only a handful of us that. I don't like to keep anything.
Yes.
Even when I'm fishing in a good area, unless I'm going to eat it.
Right.
I'm not going to keep twenty fish to eat and it's a little too much, but it's very upsetting when you see people that are keeping very small fish and I try to keep my mouth shut.
Yes.
I don't always succeed at that.
That's alright.
Yes, usually a couple times in the summer. I did it once this year. I'll go into the river for white perch and I'll keep, if I can catch them, I'll keep a dozen of them and a couple weeks ago, I think I had fourteen or fifteen of them and a nice catfish, and I know these guys like to eat fish and I brought them to them. They were down there fishing and they were appreciative of it but I only do that once or twice a year I'll do that.
Sure, there's like a whole, to me, it sounds like a whole world down there if you're not always passing by that river, you might not always know.
No, people have no– there's stuff that goes on, I mean, you have people that are sleeping down there on the banks of the river and on the toe path under the bridge and it's the river's changed a lot and even as far as that goes, years ago, you never saw that down there.
Yes.
We might have had it in the area but it wasn't that extensive or that severe at the time. I mean, when I ride through early in the morning, you just see them everywhere now. It's so sad and you just don't. You feel powerless, like what can you do and.
Yes.
But yes.
23:55
Well, it kind of is a theme now with all these things that are happening, especially the way this year has been going and feeling powerless, as you said, but then on the other side of it, what do you feel like you do have control over, or kind of, what do you feel empowered to change while you're down there?
Sometimes when I talk to people, I hope to change– or their train of thought on things, certain things, and share my experiences with similar situations.
Yes.
I've experienced a lot of friends down there passing away–
Yes.
And another one on Friday just passed away.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Thank you. I don't want to say we make our own bed, but due to the lifestyles we live, most of us don't have long lives, we're not going to make it to eighty or ninety. We're lucky to make it to sixty or sixty-five. Thank you. [Directed toward Austin]
Austin: You're welcome.
Sometimes I hope people are just kinder to others down there too by seeing some of the things I do for others down, like, we're not all bad people and people have their perceptions of other people and– but I do notice that I've been noticing it more, that people can be very manipulative. They can manipulate you, me anyway, and I was the same way years ago. I would do that.
In what ways do you mean? When we're talking about the folks that found themselves down there. We're talking about folks that don't have a roof over their head I'm guessing.
Even if they don't have a roof over their heads or if they do, they come down, they want to drink but they don't have money or, you know.
Sure.
I know by giving it to them, I'm not helping their situation and sometimes I say that, "Well, I hope that maybe one day, the drink I give them will be their last drink and they'll wake up and say, ‘I want to live different.’” But this one kid I notice lately, and I've known it that he's taking advantage of my kindness, and it does bother me, but it's not going to stop me from helping others because he's like that. I just have to back off on helping him right now and being so nice to him when he asks me for money and I don't mind once but don't ask me. I gave two days in a row, you're asking me. It was just upsetting to me for some reason. So, today I told him, no, I said, "I can't keep doing this," I told him and I have a hard time with that, most of the time being assertive. Either I'm very passive and I don't say nothing or I explode and I say too much.
Yes, it's hard to find that balance especially like when you said you've been there or been close to there at some point so you know where that person is coming from.
Yes.
Based on something you've seen before or had to deal with before. What's the thing that keeps your head above water when you're in that kind of situation?
Usually I walk away. I have to walk away and I do that a lot. I don't know if it's because I don't want to continue with the argument. I do it for my piece of mind really, because I don't want to continue going on about why I'm not going to do something for somebody and to avoid a conflict or saying the wrong thing or whatever, or them saying the wrong thing and then things escalating. Sometimes I'd rather just step away.
Yes, well, then what do you think is the real incentive problem down there. I mean, do you feel like folks are looking out for each other or you kind of have to?
For the most part, but you have– you got them– a few of them depend on others. Wait around and see if they'll give you something. I mean, it's a terrible way to have to live and then I start thinking about it. Like when I told my friend today that I can't do it today, now I'm in torture with my head because I'm like, "What's the big deal, give him three dollars, make him happy." So.
You don't stop thinking about that person.
Yes, yes, and then, so I don't give it to him. He gets a phone call from another friend of his and he says, "I'll be back in ten minutes," and two and a half hours later, he'd didn't come back. So, I want to write him a text and be sarcastic but I didn't, because–
How far is that going to go?
Yes, he probably won't even get it or understand what I'm trying to say but, yes, so it makes me feel– what am I only good for, for when I do have money to hang out with, you know, and he tells me that he tells people all the time how good of a person I am and the things I'm given him. Sometimes I wonder, is he doing that and saying these things to manipulate me? So, I stick by him and I talk good about him. I have him right in my front pocket.
Yes, that's a lot.
And that's a big part of addiction. That's a big part of addiction.
31:53
Yes, so then, and when you look at that– and feel free to answer this anyway you want because addiction is very complicated, but when you yourself are on the better side of the fifties, and you're seeing that all over again in folks that are struggling, what does that do for you? I mean, where does that put you?
I guess mostly it makes me very sad to see someone like that and to see people suffer.
Yes.
And knowing that there's a way out of it and try to talk to them about the way, possible way to get help and– but they're so caught up out there with the streets that, "Yes, I'll get help tomorrow," and tomorrow doesn't come. I had another friend that he passed away about five months ago.
I'm sorry.
Thank you, and I had talked to him for months about going to get treatment at the methadone clinic, to stop doing heroine. He finally went and didn't get clean and was still using here and there, and then he ended up using one night and he died from it, and so sometimes I feel like the people I try to help– My friend, [REDACTED], who was an alcoholic, I would talk to him and I was trying to get him back into a rehab and he died about six months ago. So, it gets frustrating at times. Addiction can be very frustrating. If you have one, or if you're a family member of somebody that has that issue, it's just like a tornado going through your family. It just destroys everything in its path and doesn't discriminate, doesn't care and I'm just lucky to even be here still with the medical problems I have and people say there's a reason. I don't know if there's a reason. I mean, I don't do it because I feel like there's a reason why I'm– I try to help people because that's what people did for me. That's what somebody did for me. It took a lot of people talking to me and telling me, “You're better than this, just stop it, and you're going to die,” and it took a lot of that in order for me to say, "You know what, if this person cares about me like they do, maybe I should."
Yes.
Because a lot of times you feel like you don't have any. A lot of people feel like they don't have anybody and a lot of people don't because they burned all them bridges.
Right.
I did the same thing and some relationships will never be the same but there's other ones that you can work on and people know. They know when you're on the stuff, what you were doing. They can tell.
Yes.
But its just so much easier not using. I mean, your life, life is complicated enough and when I put opiates, heroine into my life, that's all I cared about. I didn't care about anything else. I just wanted to have enough every day so I wouldn't get sick. Yes, I enjoyed the high sometimes, but I knew if I didn't do it after eight hours, I was going to be sick again and people get nervous and scared behind that because it's a terrible feeling to have to feel and, yes, we're doing it to ourselves, but a lot of people won't go get help because they think, "Oh, I'm going to be sick the whole–" No, and best place I ever went to get help was up in Princeton, Princeton House.
Oh, okay.
As soon as you walk in their door, they give you something for the withdrawals, so you don't have to worry about that uncomfortable feeling because that's what stopped me from going to get help. I didn't want to go through. I thought I was going to go through the withdrawals but I don't know. I see some people down the river and day after day, after day, doing the same thing day after, and that was me, that was me and you're a slave to something. You belong to something. You no longer have control and getting out of a lifestyle like that, out of an addiction like that, for some it's not too difficult but for others, for a lot– a lot of people die from opioid addiction and alcohol, and a combination of drugs or whatever but there's not a lot of– I don't want to say there's no success stories because I know there are. There's a lot of success stories. I just feel like, I was telling my friend this morning that I tried to get into the army when I was eighteen and, because I had a juvenile record, they wouldn't allow me in but the Marines would. So, I signed up for the Marines and I told my friend, I honestly believe that if I had that structure, that supervision, somebody down my throat, telling me what to do, that I would've adapted that lifestyle because I could adapt to most lifestyle changes and I think it would've helped me out a lot but, because of my actions, I ended up getting locked up and now that I'm locked up, they said they couldn't take me.
Oh wow.
So, my life could've been. I think it would've been a lot different but who knows, who knows. I might've got. People go into the service and they pick up addictions in there, so.
Yes, there would be a lot of pressure, to think, what could've or should've been.
Yes, yes.
39:36
You're talking a long time, but I hear you exactly in what you're talking about addiction being a situation in which a person is no longer in control of their life or even what's going on, what they're saying.
Yes, your life is dictated by a drug.
Sorry, we're frozen.
You hear me? You there?
Yes, go ahead.
Yes, boy, I forgot what I said now. Hopefully, I'll remember it.
I was saying what you wanted to add about what it means to not be in control of your life or your body if you're going through addiction and if you're going through withdrawals.
And going through withdrawals?
Yes, so when you're saying– or just tell me more about what that was like.
Mentally?
Or how this comes up for folks and not wanting to get help.
Mentally or physically or whichever?
All of it.
Yes, I mean, if you're not medically detoxed, it's terrible. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. You have no control of your bowels. You're throwing up. You're hot. You're cold. You're sweating. Your legs are restless. This goes on for days and then you don't sleep right for ten days, two weeks, it's just so much easier to get detoxed because you don't have to go through that torture. I feel like it's torture. Some people might think, "Well, I have to go through that. I have to feel that pain in order not to want to do it again." "Okay, if that works for you."
Sure.
But– and then I guess mentally, mentally it's very tough with the depression and depending on where you are in your life or where you're living, you're worried about, “When I get out of here, where am I going to go?” And if you're living in a house, with other people that use, it's very tough, you know.
Yes, your surroundings.
I mean, I don't think there's any set way in order to get somebody sober or clean. Some people do it on their own. Some people end up in a hundred rehabs before they get sober. Some go to a rehab and then a halfway house. I feel like whatever you think you need to do and–
Do you remember for yourself– this might be going back, but when folks started checking in with you or reaching out to you about getting you out of your addiction, do you remember what it was that you had to ask for? Like, what was it for you that changed it?
As far as support?
Yes, like, when you started reaching out. You mentioned Princeton House.
Yes, well, what happened was I got on methadone but that was after. I wasn't in Princeton House at that time.
Okay.
But I just couldn't keep doing. I was running again, for a while, and I knew there was a methadone clinic in town, and I decided to go there one day, but I didn't stop using right away. It was about a year after being on it I stopped and– but mentally, it's torture at times.
Yeah
Because when you're feeling a little uncomfortable or you can't sleep or you're irritable, you're thinking, I could really use something right now to get rid of this and it's just– if it was in front of you, chances are the person would do it, just to get rid of that uncomfortable feeling and now you got anxiety, and now life is hitting you in the face again. Now, you got to deal with life again.
Yes.
Whether it's going to get a job or getting housing or different housing and repairing relationships. It is a lot of work but I think at the end it's worth it.
Yes. Well, that's a good point you're making because one thing I'm curious about is, let's just say fast-forwarding to today. What part of that long– and I guess you're saying too, it's a process where you're making a choice, about what to do. What part of that process that you've been through in the past has prepared you for what's going on today and now especially with the virus going around?
Well, I mean, as far as a detox or a rehab or AA, they tell you to take it a day at a time. Don't worry about tomorrow and they tell you, if you can't not worry about today, if it’s too much for you, to bring it down to an hour, worry about it. Go an hour at a time or a minute at a time. But I just– when I see these people that are under the influence, it just reminds me of where I was or where I don't want to be. I don't want to be in that state, that condition again, it was so hard to get out of it to begin with and I feel lucky that I got out of it when I did because with this fentanyl that they have out there, you just don't know what's in this stuff anymore.
Yes, what have you been hearing about that?
Oh, it's a lot of, I know that some people that go where I go, they give a urine test and it's not even opiates. It's pure fentanyl that they're finding in their systems now.
Whoa.
Yes, so.
46:38
I mean, I feel like that's kind of entered the public knowledge the past couple years.
But that's on, you don't hear about it much because of the other things that are going on in the country and in the world, but people are still dying from it. I don't know. I haven't heard anything about it really.
Yes.
I don't know if it's as bad as it was in the beginning, as far as the deaths. I do know that fentanyl, even with that Narcan in your nose.
Right, the shot.
It really doesn't work for fentanyl which is, it's just. Sometimes I wonder, like, I know medicines are needed and necessary for certain things but you wonder, what would make somebody make something like that, that can't be reversed.
Yes.
Something so– what if the doctor accidentally gives somebody a little too much. I don't know even if there is something for it but yes, Narcan does not, from what I've been told, it doesn't affect–
Won't touch it?
No.
Yes.
And I know people that have had four or five, a few of them up their nose and an IV, and still not, twenty minutes later they're still not out of it and then they find. They're the lucky ones, you know.
That make, it yes. Yes, well, I am curious to know, where do you get– because this is something we've been trying to follow this whole time is where you get your updates about how to keep, either yourself, or how to keep, check in on the folks around you? Where is it that you're getting your information?
I guess the news sometimes from other people. Just by hearing things.
Yes.
But most of it is from television. When somebody does tell me something, generally, I go on Google and I research.
Try to double check it, yes.
Just to make– because people can hear something wrong, make a mistake, so I like to know for sure.
Yes, and then I'm curious too then, when you're checking on those things, what kind of, and this can be general or specific if you can think of something specific, what kind of messaging do you get? Do you hear about folks who are either dealing with addiction or folks who are homeless? What are the sorts of things that you hear?
People that are homeless are not very well liked. I guess because some of them are severely mentally ill and they might say things or appear to look violent or be threatening or– I was watching the thing in New York where they were trying to move him from one hotel to another and people wanted them out of there and we don't want them here and I'm sure some of those people can't feel too good when they see on the news, that these people, they think you're disgusting. They don't even want you here. How much, that's got to do some kind of damage. Some people I would imagine that have half a mind when they hear that and now I would repeat that in my head now if I heard that. You know, "Maybe they're right. Maybe I am a bum and psychotic and not a good person.” No, just because somebody's homeless doesn't mean they're not a good person. Something got in there, and it could be a number of things from being mentally ill and being in that institutions and now we're on the streets again. Somebody can lose their job, lose their house, a divorce, get kicked out and I think it's just– I think it's going to get worse in this country with that. I mean, even though there– I heard today that chances are we're not going to get a stimulus check, the twelve hundred, and listen, I care less about it to be honest with you but there are people. There are people, yes, that's not going to do much for a lot of people, but there's people that are on the brink of losing their apartments, their rooms. They don't have food on the table. Let's give three hundred million to this company to keep them going and forget the little guy. Us up here that are rich, we ain't worried, we're good. They had promised. I thought they had said there was going to be another. I thought they had said that at one point but it just goes, as usual.
Yes, and this news is changing almost every week we're hearing, I feel, something different. I guess it's safe to say it's unpredictable what–
Oh yes. When you're dealing with a government that's run by a person that's unpredictable, you know, get ready, you don't know what's next and somebody, I don't know if they're on the cabinet there with Trump or, but they were, they had tweeted, sent a tweet or something out, telling people to start loading up on ammunition and weapons because it's going to go down. But he doesn't want to create panic and that's why we weren't told how serious this virus was, he knew. I heard him say, “I knew it was five times more deadly than the flu,” or whatever he had said, “But I didn't want people to panic, that's why I didn't tell them.” Okay, so let's not prepare for what's about to happen and just see what happens and look what's going. It's–
There's a whole lot we can open up but out of everything that you're getting on the news, what is hitting home the most for you? At least as far as what's going on nowadays?
Probably, I would say, probably the virus is still number one up there because I want to hear about a vaccine and I want to be informed somewhat, even though we're being informed, chances are it might not be the truth anyway or it might be exaggerated some. But I'm more apt to believe the guy from the CDC whose saying the second or third quarter next year, there will be one available for everybody.
Yes.
So, summer time, towards the end of the summer, I guess, and after he said that, what an outcry of people. Somebody was saying on the television that if they came out with one in October or November, I wouldn't take it they said. I'm not getting in that line.
Why do you think that is?
Well, I think because, mostly from what they're saying is, they don't trust one, and also, they're saying it's only going to be fifty percent effective, so it's like a crap shoot. You have a fifty-fifty chance. I mean, I rather be on the side of caution but I don't want to take something that could potentially might not know everything about you. I would rather wait another six months, because another company to come out with something and–
56:26
You know and we've been talking about the specific health needs that you have and, so, when you hear that news, I mean, it's fair to say, do you always think about “How this is going to affect me,” when you think about, I mean, you mentioned last month, you do consider yourself more vulnerable than maybe the regular person because of some of the things that you had to–
Not so much more vulnerable.
Sure.
More so, if I was to get sick from it that then I think I would be in big trouble.
Yes.
Because of my physical.
I didn't mean to mix that up.
Yes, it's okay, but that's what I used to, I was thinking because I have these problems, does that mean it's easier for me to catch?
[crosstalk]
Got you, I guess what I mean to ask without adding to your words is just, where do you see yourself as given the conditions and the needs that you need to take care, that you need to seek out when you hear that news? I guess that's all I'm asking.
Yes.
Or, do you feel like you're a separate person? Do you feel like it's affecting you differently or do you feel like?
Sometimes I don't know what to think about it because of–
That's okay.
The information that we've been getting, one week they're saying one thing. One week it's something else now and then you find out the President knew from the beginning how deadly this was but didn't want to panic people. So, that makes me think, "What else are they hiding? What else are they not saying?"
Yes.
But for the most part, I think, if I think it'll help me or I think I can use whatever they're talking about in some way in my life, six feet apart, masks, things like that. For the most part, I listen to that stuff and I know with the winter coming up, I'll still be coming, going out, not as much but probably a couple times, a few times a week, I'll come to New Brunswick on the bike but I'll be in my room.
Yes.
I don't allow company. Company doesn't come in there and that's how I would prefer it to be for now.
Yes.
No offense to no one but it's just how I feel it has to, especially in these coming months coming up, you know, soon.
So, you're taking.
Yes, and I worry a lot about my mom, too, because if she was to get it, I don't know if she would recover from it either, yes, with her medical history. She's morbidly obese, high blood pressure, diabetes, so, people like us that have these medical issues, not everybody's going to die that has medical issues, but I guess it would depend on what type of issues you have and I just saw this, a doctor, twenty-eight years old, I don't know if she was an intern somewhere, did you see that today?
I heard about that. Yes, it was on my newsfeed this morning actually.
Yes, and she went in the hospital, I think towards the end of July, I think they said, she died, twenty-eight years old and it didn't look like– you can't tell if somebody has medical issues most of the time, but she didn't look like she had any serious things and I didn't hear anything about it but yes, they had a GoFundMe page for her for when she was sick to help with the costs. So, these, I don't think she was one of them that was out at a party hanging out with all these. I don't think she was, she got in the hospital where a lot of these college campuses, they're saying, I don't know, becoming super spreader places and that's because they go inside, they go into a frat house, or a dorm, and they're all packed in a room, and "Oh, we'll be alright." "Yes, you might be alright but what about the other person you give it to, you know."
Yes, somebody might catch it.
Yes. That's what's going to be tricky this winter. That's what's going to be the big thing.
Yes.
Because people aren't going to want to go outside when it's twenty degrees.
They can't be. They can't survive that.
Yes.
1:01:56
I think that's part of the issue that we're kind of here exploring is when you don't have the means. What is it?
Yes.
What are the calculations that you're starting to have to make kind of. But as I'm asking that, I guess I'd like to know more about when you have, when you make a point of contact with, let's say, with Neighbor Corps or, the New Reformed Church or if– and I guess I didn't even get to ask this yet but, if you're going to a doctor or you're getting your health checkup, what are those folks doing for you in terms of helping you prepare?
Well, thank God I'm not homeless right now. I'm in a hotel and from what I understand, it shouldn't be very long before I get an apartment.
Okay.
Here in Middlesex County somewhere. I get support like when I'm not feeling good. You know like, like I'll either text [REDACTED] or my other counselor and let them know that I haven't been feeling good lately and they usually get back to me. I don't know if I answered your?
Yes, I asked it, I kind of asked in three parts. I've been doing that this whole– I hope you don't mind. But yes, that's one part of it, I guess, are you seeing regularly, are you getting access to your doctor or health checkups?
Yes, yes, I have to go. I'll either probably go tomorrow. I have to get blood drawn for the blood thinner I take to make sure it's therapeutic but I have, actually my medical doctor, she's retiring.
Oh, okay.
And I've had her for some years now. So, I have to get another doctor in the same, that same place. I got to go back to the dentist again and that's– Well, I should be doing physical therapy because my back has not gotten any better and some days I'll be down fishing for a couple hours and I get pain in my back and I got to go in the grass and lay down for half an hour and that gets rid of the pain. I think I had a lot of knots. My muscles in my back are tight, actual knots in them.
Okay.
So, they offered me physical therapy at Robert Wood. So, I just, I'm good at setting things up and knowing what I have to do, but my follow through is poor.
I got you. That's a process, yes, for sure, but I mean, was there anything else you want to add?
Well, an example of how my follow through is poor. I got a phone, another phone, three weeks ago. It was the wrong one, so I brought it back about two weeks ago. So, I got a new phone now but I have yet to set it up. I've had it for two weeks. Here I am complaining for months about this phone and now I get another one. So, I don't get myself sometimes.
Yes, I'm not passing any judgement because we've all been there.
Yes.
1:06:21
I've been there too. But to make a point of it, who do you lean on the most, in terms of your now networks of, I guess, you can say support. In your support network right now, what is it?
I don't rely or depend on any one person too much.
Sure.
I'll tell some about what's going on with me and another person other things that are. I would say probably my counselor at New Brunswick Counseling Center. We talk every Monday for forty-five minutes or so and she knows quite a bit about me and I feel very comfortable confiding in her and she doesn't judge and.
Is this, I'm sorry, is this mental health counseling?
Well, it's the methadone clinic, my counselor through–
Oh okay.
Yes, so she's a drug and alcohol counselor and deals with mental health because normally, alcohol, drugs, they go hand in hand with depression and mental illnesses and–
Okay.
Usually if one person– if a person is doing something, it's a good chance they might have other issues.
Yes, how long have you been connected to that?
It's in about, let's see, I think in four or five months it will be four years but I've been trying to get off of it. I was on ninety milligrams. I'm down to thirty-two and they stopped it for months now. hey haven't lowered it because they thought coming down off of it was causing me to be more depressed so they stopped it. Well, I'm still depressed, so I don't think it was that. So, I want to be off of it because you get your freedom back. I have very little freedom. When I think about it, when I first start, you got to go every day there, every day you got to go except Sunday. So, and if you don't go, then you don't get that day's, you might get withdrawal systems. So, I want to be able, if I want to get on a bus and go to Florida for a week or South Carolina for a week, I want to be able to do that. I don't want to be told you can't do that because you're on this program and that's basically where I'm at. I was supposed to be off fourteen months ago I was supposed to be off the program but, like I said, I'm still on it but I'll eventually get off and– Because even when I go to move somewhere, like say I wanted to move out of state, I got to find a clinic that's within so many miles that I can get to.
Right.
So, it's a little harder than finding a doctor.
Yes, for sure.
But I mean, they're all over but I would rather be off of it totally. I haven't had an urge in a while. Yes, I do get them once in a while and I deal with it and I usually tell somebody that I feel like using or I felt like using. You just got to think about it, “Well alright, so you go get something, what's going to happen next? Well, if you don't die, stop, it's not even worth it because I don't want to be– have this drug dictate my life again and that's all, you know. “ What, you know. I don't know. Some people love that drug, heroine. Yes, I liked it a lot too but I told somebody the other day, I don't even think I would use. I'm pretty confident I wouldn't use if they gave me enough heroine for the rest of my life. I don't think I would use it because I just know what comes with it and it's not good stuff.
And what it put you through.
Yes, yes, because now I'm hooked. I've never been hooked on a drug like heroine. I mean, I've been doing drugs a long time but not anything that was addictive.
Yes.
This is a whole new animal, this thing, and I did it off and on for twenty-one years and I'm just glad the ride's been over for a little while now and I don't want to go back to that.
Yes, I totally understand and it sounds like it's a long-term, if not, lifetime process.
Oh yes, yes.
If I'm hearing it correctly.
Oh yes, no doubt, until you die, until you're dead. Yes, it's a process and it's not going to– It's not all good either because there's things, when you're in the program, they want you to do that's recommended you do certain things in order to get yourself better and get your loved ones.
What sort of things?
I think, the toughest one, I think, personally, would be making amends to people I've harmed in the past. They tell you not to do it if you or someone else could become injured.
Okay.
So, if you have an issue with your brother. If he hates you, and you stole money from him and he told you, "The next time I see you I'm beating your butt." You don't want to go tell him, "Here's the money I took from you, I want to make." He's going to take your money and beat your butt.
Yes, so you're kind of left to figure that part out.
Yes, most of it is generally– is your family, for the most part, and if you have kids and a spouse. I've never personally sat down with someone and made amends. I told them that I'm very sorry for the things I've done. I think I do it more with how I live today, my actions, and my behaviors and when they're around me. I think that's more of an amends to them, not seeing me in that state and not wondering what's going to happen next.
Yes.
Because, I know my parents, they had many sleepless nights with me growing up.
1:14:36
I really appreciate you sharing those parts and I do want to be careful about asking about more than your comfortable sharing. I also want to make sure to check with you on time. I have a few more questions I wanted to ask you but.
Okay, yes.
If you feel okay with that.
Yes.
But also feel free to sidetrack if you feel like didn't get your piece out.
Alright.
But yes, related to that, I'm just trying to connect it. Do you feel, like there's a part of your identity or a part of your background or a part of what you're dealing with now, that keeps you from getting help? That keeps you from getting to the other side?
Yes, I think somehow, I was brought up possibly. If I got hurt, I wasn't brought to the doctor, the hospital and I've had some– I split my head open. I've done some other things over the years and no, I was basically, it was mostly my mom that she would tell me certain things. "Do not bother this one. Do not say– if you tell your dad this is going to happen," and so that stopped me from reaching out for help and I look back on it now and apparently, as a young kid, I needed a lot of help and I was too afraid to ask.
Yes. So, without having to dig too deep, what would you think is the biggest obstacle that you're facing now?
Besides me?
Yes, I would say like.
Well.
We've talked about so much.
Yes, I would say, I mean, part of me that stops me from doing certain things is my depression.
Yes.
I get hopeless real easily. I get angry sometimes easily.
So then, do you feel that's what you focus on the most, in terms of what's kind of in your network, just working on that, on your mental health, on taking care of that?
Yes, I mean, I'm not thrilled where I am mentally right now but I'm not disappointed either because I do feel better than I have been feeling so I'm glad for that. It's tolerable now, for the most part. But I just, it gets so tiring going through this day after day, and it just wears you, it literally wears me down.
Yes.
Then there's times that I'll sleep the whole day away. I don't get up. I don't eat and I think about getting up and doing, but–
Yes, it helps. I guess, the reason I'm asking is because I am– kind of our bigger question that I wanted to ask you is what do you feel like is the most, if you could narrow it down to one or two things, is the most pressing concern for homeless folks or folks who are dealing with housing security today?
What is the most?
What do you think is the most pressing or urgent concern?
Okay.
And if it connects to you that's why I asked first.
Right, obviously housing would probably be number one but for coming off of the streets, I know I did, I need a checkup. I need to get to a doctor and make sure I'm medically okay and because I didn't see doctors. I didn't take care of myself and just to get your– my mental health and the physical part of me back together and just try not to get discouraged because it could be a very lengthy process. There's people that wait years sometimes, depending on what agency they use or what they applied for and there's some people that wait a year. It's hard not to. Here you are in a hotel, everybody's situation is different and but I guess what aggravates me the most is that I get the same amount of money as the next person there but by the third or fourth day, after they're checked, they're already asking me for a cigarette and I've consistently have said no and that's how I have to be because if I do it for one. "Well, you gave that one a cigarette or you gave him a cigarette." I just don't want to get and I know cigarettes are a very powerful thing, very powerful. I've been smoking cigarettes since probably twelve or thirteen.
Sure.
And it's the hardest thing I've ever tried to quit. I mean, I've tried, and I still smoke.
Yes.
You know, to me, it's quitting smoking is definitely harder than it was to quit heroine.
Wow, I believe it, yes.
Yes, and they say that too. They say it's more powerful than– what do they say? No, nicotine is more addictive than heroin or cocaine.
Right, as a chemical.
Now, cocaine is, to me, I wasn't physically addicted to it but it did a number on my mind, I'll tell you. It was definitely addictive that way. Did I answer your question there?
Yes.
Okay.
1:21:59
I just have to say, you've been doing really good. I really do appreciate your word.
No problem, honesty? Candor?
Yes, because you had so much to share. I actually did, have just the one last question and it goes back to. If that's okay with you?
Yes.
We were talking about this earlier, with perceptions and I was asking about messaging, and the things that you hear and this is just maybe to kind of like take it away. If you have access to the newsfeed or to the airways, for like one day or for an hour or something. What would you tell people who are not on this side of our conversation about what it means to be homeless or what it means to be starting with addiction or whatever else that we've kind of been talking about? Yes, I guess that's kind of like, in a creative way or kind of in a positive way.
Yes.
What's something the world could use more of?
I think a big part of it would be for people to realize that whether someone's homeless or has an addiction, they're not bad people, we're not bad people. We might do bad things at times, in our addiction, to get drugs or because we're under the influence, we might do things but for the most part, they say that we're good people with a bad disease and a lot of people, I think, look at it as just say no. It's that simple. Just don't do it, you know. Yes, that sounds good. It's not that easy though.
Yes.
Like the commercials on television, one of the commercials, just eat one potato chip, you can't.
Yes.
Everybody has, not everybody, but some people have addictions and it may not be drugs or alcohol. It could be food.
Sure.
It could be gambling. Like my mom, she tells me she's addicted to food and she says, "It's terrible because I have to eat it to survive," but you gorge, you eat more than you should and then you're overweight. It can become an issue and other people think that it's just easy, just stop. Just stop, get new friends, move and start all over. Well, the problem with that is, when you move, you're there again, there you are. To me, it didn't matter where I moved, I'd find stuff anywhere I moved and so, some people's views are set and some people, no matter what you said to them, they're still going to feel like you're a piece of crap. You did drugs. You were in jail. You're a terrible person, why would anybody want to be around you.
Yes.
Some of us have a little bit of knowledge about things and maybe you can learn something from it and that's a big thing for me. Like don't cut somebody off or not be friends with somebody because of what they did in the past or what they're doing now, unless it's terrible, terrible. I think I said it last time, when I– you must remain teachable, you know, if I'm not learning or listening, I'm not going to learn and by opening up my world up to different types of people, you get a lot of knowledge and understanding of things. I never wanted to– I wanted to be a baseball player.
Yes.
I didn't want to be a drug addict. I wanted to play for the Mets or the Yankees.
Sure.
Something happened.
Yes.
Certain chemicals alleviated my moods. I felt a little better about myself and here I am thirty-seven years later and with the using and I honestly believe sometimes that if I wasn't using at times, I don't know if I would be here. I don't know if I would've taken my own life.
Yes.
When you, when somebody's desperate, like when I was desperate, I would do anything and I just think the biggest thing, like I said, is that people have the thought that somebody that's homeless is this type of person or get off the streets and go clean yourself up and get a job. That's easy to say but do you know if he can work? Does he have mental health issues? Is he physically able to work? So, I don't think a lot of people look at homeless addicts and alcoholics favorably.
Yes.
We're usually considered less then and I felt less then and they would confirm it for me, you know.
1:28:12
Sure.
So, education, you got to educate yourself on these things. I mean, they say it's a disease like cancer is and they say if you're loved one was dying from cancer would you tell them, "Get out of my house, good luck, I don't want you around because you have a disease." We're an addict or an alcoholic that has a disease. They're being shooed away all the time and, I mean, sometimes they have to be, to be honest with you, and you never know when somebody's going to get that awakening and say, "You know what, I'm tired of living like this." My mom has a friend and her friend has a daughter who has addictions.
Sure.
Well, my mom's friend got really sick, almost a month ago. So, she had a procedure done on her back and they put some dye in her and she was allergic to the dye.
Oh wow.
And she was in grave condition for– She was in a coma. They were doing cat scans of her brain every hour to see if the dye was– It did– She's doing a little better now, she's talking now. Her daughter who's in another state– I don't know if it was Washington. She was in rehab. She left rehab to come out here and she hasn't seen her mom in years. For fifteen years, mom wants nothing to do with her and mom wants nothing to do with her until she gets help. Well, she showed up at the hospital and the mom wasn't coherent yet. But she's taking care of her mom every day and my mom said to me, "I can't believe she came here. She only has two weeks clean." I said, "Mom, remember when I had two weeks clean?" So, you don't know.
Sometimes it takes a little bit, yes.
That situation that she's in right now, taking care of her mom might be her awakening that says, "You know what? I need my family. I got to, and be there for them." That might turn her life around. Sometimes tragedies do that and I hope she gets better, I really do. But yes, we're not bad people.
1:31:14
I really appreciate that answer and I can hear that it's coming from. The last thing I want to do is try to put your story in just one little box, so I appreciate that you're able to draw on everything we talked about and all sorts of things that you've been through to pass that message along. I think, alright, at least I hope that it can help some folks.
I hope so.
Hear you out and hear other folks out, yes, for sure.
Yes.
I really appreciate getting a chance to talk to you again.
You too, you too.
Any last word on the Coronavirus? Any last thought before we go?
You get all these professionals talking about it and you really don't know who to listen to, but I think a big part of it is because this is a new virus. So, they're not going to know everything about it in six months. I wouldn't think. Now, they were talking about it this morning about its spread now. Now, they're saying it's spread this way and sort of learning more and more about it. Before, they said it wasn't spread that way but now they're saying yes, it is. So, even when they tell you this information, I'm not saying not to listen to it but to take extra precautions. That's how I've been doing it.
Yes, well, for now, I guess we're in the same boat.
Yes.
So, I hope that you're able to take the precautions you need and to stay safe and stay healthy, absolutely.
All right, and you too, and you too.
Cool, well, thanks again Matt.
All right, okay.
I really, really appreciate it.
No problem.
Yes, it's a great talk, so.
Alright, and if you ever need me again, you let me know and we could–
Yes, that's actually on your end if you feel like you want to.
Yes, I'll let Austin know. That's what I did. I let him know, yes, all right.
Just let him know. Great, I'll catch you later.
Okay, have a.
Have a good day.
You too, now. All right.